The artist known as Spenser is the alias of musician and creative director, Spencer O'Leary. An individual with a unique perspective on the way that modern music is portrayed on the radio and streaming services, a particular eye for beautifully creative things and an encyclopaedic library of music: whether that be artists, albums or songs. We recently sat down with Spenser to chat about his philosophy in regards to both music and fashion, some of his favourite songs and the integration of music and art.
So, let’s start off really simple just to let people who might not be familiar with your work know who you are. When did your love for music begin, and when did you get the general idea that you wanted to go into the artistic space?
My whole life, I’ve always been naturally attached and drawn to artistic things. I can remember just being so fascinated by paintings, and music was so enchanting. I actually thought that was just the general nature of humans- I didn't realise that was different.
I went to a Catholic school. I remember every time we'd have church once a week or once every two weeks, I just would always look at the stained-glass windows and the paintings and it was almost breathtaking for me. When I was 11, there was a guitar in my house. I don’t know how it got there. Maybe my dad had tried to play it, or maybe he might have won it. It just appeared there. I've never had a drive to learn like I did with that guitar. I can still remember when I was 11 years old, those couple weeks of just learning songs and playing things. It was just so divine, as if I was enlightened to play that acoustic guitar. That developed a real love for music, and I thought that this was going to be my thing.
Becoming an artist, it went hand in hand with starting to learn the guitar. You start learning about musical heroes, you see them on stage, and you see people creating and having this intense love for playing music. I saw that and I wanted that.
I saw in the magazine that you talk a bit of your anguish to try and keep your old band together. What ended up happening in the end with the band?
We started that band when I was in year 12; when I was 18. I'd always played with people in different school bands and things, but it was the first time that I got together a group of people together who were like-minded. It was good fun. But it's really, really hard to keep four artistic people together. It takes a certain type of personality to be in a band and make it successful. In my opinion, you need to be mature beyond your years to be in a band.
I’ll say it like this: everyone wants to be a piece of a ship that that has four steering wheels, but that just can’t be the case. Everyone on the ship has a certain role. Not everyone can be the captain. We just didn't understand that at the time. Eventually, it just crumbled. Not that I wanted it to- I tried everything to keep it together. We were a bit too young, a bit naïve, and a bit immature.
I'm going to be honest, the first time I listened to your album when I was doing research for this interview. But it is so beautiful, honestly. When you think of other small Australian artists, they all have the same sort of sound of indie rock, as if they're trying to be the next Lime Cordiale. But in your magazine, you said you felt a bit separated from the Australian music landscape. Is that a big philosophy of yours? To be a bit spontaneous and creative in an industry that wants everyone to release radio hits.
It’s a great, great question. I do dwell on this quite a lot because I think the current industry has so much similarity. You hear a lot of bands these days, and yeah, they're seeking radio hits. These guys are really good musicians and songwriters, but I've never subscribed to it. I learned that doing my own thing is what really fulfils me. All my favourite artists are people who have done their own thing, and I just can't help but be like that. I've never really been in a scene or anything, although I will say now that I'm in a bit of a scene with other bands and musos, but I've never been in a scene that requires you to be similar. With music, it's one thing that I feel so confident and so happy doing my own thing in. I make what I want to make, and it naturally comes out that way.
A lot of people I know talk about wanting to get a play on Triple J, or doing something that will get on a playlist. But I just don't subscribe to that one bit. I'm so fixated on making what I want to make and making the most beautiful thing.
Why do you think that the radio is the way that it is, where they try to push this song with a nice beat and production, but don't really care about the song’s actual meaning? Is that because it’s what people want to hear, or is that because the people have been moulded by the radio to enjoy that music?
This is a really good narrative because I don't talk to a lot of people about it. People just accept it for the way it is, but so much radio is just surface level. ‘Triple M’ just plays the hits that are going to let dads keep the radio on. ‘Smooth’ is pretty good, but it's the same thing. It's just classics. It's all about what can we play to make people keep the radio on? Triple J cops heat, but it is good. But sometimes I just listen to it and think to myself ‘what the hell is going on here?’ There's no definitive message. You might get a couple songs from an international artist, and you'll get a couple from a local artist, and I guess Triple J keep it alive a bit because they interview artists, and they talk a bit about what's going on in the scene. But all radio just seems so commercialised. There's a radio station called SIM which is independent, and it’s run out of RMIT. SIM is really good because it's got that old school feel. You can tell that the people who run it love the radio. They love finding and exposing the new songs and talking about new artists. It feels how it did in the 70s and 80s, where the radio played something new to intrigue people rather than just keep the radio on. I wasn't around in the 70s and 80s, but I feel that the radio had a great spirit back then that it doesn't occupy today.
In that way as well, you're a bit unconventional in the way that you don't care about getting this crazy number of streams.
Yeah. F*ck that. If I got one of my songs added to a playlist, how many of those people are actually going to go check me out, or read about me? Unless they really love the song, they'll just listen to it and go to the next one.
But I'm very grateful for all the people who find my stuff. I feel that there are people out there who absolutely love music. Sometimes it's beyond just the music. It's cool to read about an artist or even get into contact with them. You can just get in contact with people now on the Internet, which is crazy. But I really love people who just love music the heart of it. Those who will listen to a song for the sake of the songwriting. Not just throwing music on to pass the time.
In your magazine, you also said you're still waiting for a group of people to stumble upon your music. Are you still waiting for that, or do you have a general idea of who you want to stumble upon the music?
No, no I don't. I don't know what my audience is yet, and I feel like I haven't released my definitive song yet. Everything that has released up until thus far has been me experimenting and growing as a songwriter. I'm really proud of the music that I've made. I would love to find an audience, and not even a big audience. I'd love to put music out there, and then when I play shows people come along and after the show we can talk about music. I just want people who love music to hear my sound and enjoy it with me. I think that's just going to come over time, to be honest. It's not like I'm waiting for like a big moment, or a break. It’s about finding the right people over time.
When I spoke to your mate Dylan, he was talking to me about how people didn't see his vision or the same message that he was trying to convey when he started GSJ. For you as well, you talk about there being a bit of fear when you put out your first body of work. Was it the fear of people not liking the music, or was it a fear of moving on to a different stage of your life?
100%. I think it was the fear of what will happen when you release music, but it's not until you actually do it that you lose that fear. I'm so glad that I went ahead and did it, even though I'm still figuring it out. I think I'm just going to get better at writing and producing over time, and that audience will hopefully develop. But as for now, I'm really excited for when I put out my next batch of songs. I've been doing this for about a year and a bit now and I sort of understand what it takes, and I know where I want to go. When I put out my next set of songs, my next couple of EPs, or perhaps even an album, if people don't understand that music, then people haven't seen my vision.
Speaking of Dyl, I asked him this as well, but from your perspective it might be a bit different. For example, Dylan, Zakk and Simon are selling a tangible product, I guess. I’m not sure if that’s the right word. But as a musician, where you are the product, how does being in that group of friends differ for you?
It’s changing a lot more as we're getting more developed into our own set of niches. It's not something that I'm struggling with, but it's something I'm very aware of. These guys have a product and it's a brand, whereas I am the brand. And that’s how it is with music, isn’t it? I wish I could be an artist who creates work, puts it out and leaves it, but I think today with the internet and everything, you need to have your eyes across yourself as the brand. It's something I'm coming to terms with and slowly figuring out how I'm going to do it. What does my offering look like, and how can I make that successful? The boys have a product, but I have myself, so the product of myself might be me putting on great gigs that are really good experiences, or putting out great music regularly that people can come back to. Even with merchandise. It does differ, but at the end of the day, it's the same thing. You just want to make a great product. It is slowly growing different as me and the boys slowly get more professional and we slowly figure out what we're selling and what we're about, but we’re always talking to each other and keeping up the dialogue. Although it's different, we still want the same thing.
It's not even a big monetary thing. Of course, it's great to make loads of money. Dyl’s videos resonate with a lot of people, but he doesn't make a lot of money off that, right? It’s kind of the same thing with my song. If it resonates with a lot of people, that's the success. It's not if people go and buy my merch or buy my records, at the end of the day, you just want your stuff to resonate with a large group of people.
You and your mate Jackson as well have Astelle House, but I saw it hadn’t been active for a while. Dylan said that you sort of stepped away from it and you had moved on, what happened?
So before I did music, me and Jackson started a brand together and it did well. We finished high school, we created a brand, I really enjoyed that, and it was great. I don't think that side of me has fully left yet. We said that we were going to put it on hold because I'm focusing on music, and Jackson is doing design work. It's not that we broke up or anything. To be honest, I haven't moved on officially from that. I feel like creating and designing. Being in the brand space is something I really, really enjoyed, and I was probably like quite successful at it for what it was. I'm not going to say too much, but there's definitely things going on in the background that I’m working on.
There's still a lot to navigate, as I’m reaching this early 20s age. There's a lot of bits and pieces of things that I've done, and I think, ‘what does the future look like?’ It's definitely playing music, though. Playing music is the most artistic and creative thing that I do. It's the most fulfilling thing. I'd love to keep doing it and supplement it with a brand or something more physical.
I always think if I could make my music its own brand. It sounds a bit vain, but could my merchandise be similar to how Astelle was? Could I create events like that with my music that were like the pop-up stores? I really am still in a volatile state, and things can absolutely change.
Have you ever bought a record based on the design?
From a young age I've been so fascinated with the record cover. I never thought as a kid I'd like be a designer; that came a bit later after I finished school. I started messing around and thought it was amazing that you can do all these things with design. I wouldn't say I've brought records based on the covers, but the covers are 100% a part of it.
I always believe that the cover and the imagery conjured up by the artist impact the work. It's not going to stop me from listening, but I think all those things just make up the image in your mind and soul of what the artist is to you.
I like that. It’s the same thing with music videos and album aesthetics. A lot of people tell me to just listen to the song, but I personally believe that all that artistry around the album makes it so much better. I know you listen to Tyler, the Creator, and his album rollouts are just brilliant. I don’t know if you watched the music videos for his latest album, but the aesthetics fit so perfectly with the music.
100%. Tyler is one of the last artists that really pays attention to those things. Every detail is thought about. I love the idea of just rocking with the music, but I personally do like how Tyler does his videos, and it really adds to the whole album the experience. With artists today I feel you can't discount the experience.
Definitely. These days a lot of artists are told how to fit into the industry. They need to release a single, and then they have to do interviews to promote the album, and then they finally release the album. I think especially when an artist has a specific rollout, it just makes the whole thing feel like you're going into the world of the album.
That probably the best way to describe it. You need to put that quote on the interview!
That's why Tyler is such a great artist and will be around forever. A lot of people have the ambition, but he pulls through on it. He probably invests a lot of his own money into those videos, and I think that's what's really important. I mean we have Spotify now. You don't really need the video and you don't really have the album artworks, but how could it not affect you going into a record store back in the day? Pulling out a record and seeing Bob Dylan's face on it or seeing a crazy 70s band with long hair and guitars. How could that not affect the experience? It’s the poor man's art collection, as they say.
I had another other girl that came on a few weeks ago and we did a bracket. I had 16 songs for her, she chose which one she liked the most and said a bit about why that song is better. I've got 16 songs here for you. The thing is your music taste is so broad, so we’re going to get some crazy matchups by the end.
Let's hit it. I love this stuff, man.
Round 1: ‘Hold On’ by John Lennon vs ‘The Sun is Up Forever’ by Joesef.
I love Joesef as a modern artist. I think he's great. He’s got a cool voice, and such a great team around him, but ‘Hold On’ by John Lennon. It's just a magical one. Those guitars? It's one of the most beautiful sounds ever.
Round 2: ‘Fade into You’ by Mazzy Star vs ‘Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes’ by Paul Simon.
Oh, really hard. This is really hard. ‘Fade Into You’ is similar to ‘Hold On’. It has that ethereal softness to it. But I think I'm going to have to go with Paul Simon, ‘Diamonds on the Sole of Her Shoes.’ I love that album. Graceland. If I had to take the Mazzy Star record or Paul Simon’s Graceland, it would be Paul Simon. That just wins.
Round 3: ‘Japanese Denim’ by Daniel Caesar vs ‘Surf’ by Mac Miller.
I just saw Daniel Caesar last week in Sydney. It got cut short, so he didn't get to play ‘Japanese Denim,’ but I love that song. It’s got that old school RnB feel, but with modern energy and modern songwriting. But ‘Surf’ is just such a cool song. The guitars on that song are amazing. I'm grateful for Mac, but I think I'm going to go ‘Japanese Denim’ based on the whole Daniel Caesar thing. What he's trying to do, along with his success. I f*cking love Mac Miller, and that's probably one of my favourite Mac songs, but ‘Japanese Denim’ is class. I could listen to that all the time.
Round 4: ‘Linger’ by The Cranberries vs ‘Eleanor Rigby’ by The Beatles.
Oh my God. I love that sound of ‘Linger’ and Dolores' voice. Anytime it comes on the radio I have to turn that thing up. ‘Linger’ is always a pleasure to listen to. But I think for songwriting and my love for The Beatles, it's going to have to be ‘Eleanor Rigby.’ That song, with all the strings, I just get a bit more out of that song every time I listen to it.
Round 5: ‘In the Aeroplane over the Sea’ by Neutral Milk Hotel vs ‘Helmet’ by Steve Lacy.
I do really like Neutral Milk Hotel. That is a cool album, but that song ‘Helmet’ man. That's probably my favourite Steve Lacy song. I'm going to go with that just because it's so weird. For that to be on a number one album is f*cking awesome. I like ‘Bad Habit’ and the other songs, but when I first played the album and heard that song, I thought that it was some Paul Simon sh*t, with the weird rhythms. The way his voice is not perfect is what’s so appealing.
Round 6: ‘Red Right Hand’ by Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds vs ‘Rae Street’ by Courtney Barnett.
I love Nick Cave, but I'm going to have to go ‘Rae Street’ by Courtney Barnett. I walk past Rae Street all the time. It’s an actual street in Fitzroy North. I love everything Courtney Barnett has done and her aesthetic. She’s basically the modern-day Bob Dylan.
It’s devastating that these local Australian female artists don’t get the love they deserve. These guys should be household names. For example, Julia Jacklin and Stella Donnelly. There are so many female artists who are in their like 30s are just so great.
Round 7: ‘Boredom’ by Tyler, the Creator vs ‘Roadrunner’ by The Modern Lovers.
I love ‘Boredom.’ It's such an important song to me. I remember hearing that the first time and thinking, ‘wow, this is something you can do in music’. It’s a film score in such a dope song. But I'm going to have to go ‘Roadrunner’ by The Modern Lovers. That was one of my first loves and I always come back to that song.
Round 8: ‘Pearly-Dewdrops Drops’ by Cocteau Twins vs ‘Blowin’ in the Wind’ by Bob Dylan.
I'm going to say the most controversial thing. I love the Cocteau Twins, especially Elizabeth Fraser. That sound in the 80s coming out of Britain was brilliant. But I'm going to have to say ‘Blowin in the Wind.’ The mission of my life is to write a song like ‘Blowin’ in the Wind.’
Quarter Final 1: ‘Hold On’ by John Lennon vs ‘Diamonds on the Soles of Her Shoes’ by Paul Simon.
‘Hold On.’ ‘Hold On,’ ‘Hold On,’ ‘Hold On.’
Quarter Final 2: ‘Japanese Denim’ by Daniel Caesar vs ‘Eleanor Rigby’ by The Beatles.
‘Eleanor Rigby!’
Quarter Final 3: ‘Helmet’ by Steve Lacy vs ‘Rae Street’ by Courtney Barnett
This is the hard one. I want to say ‘Rae Street’ because I love Courtney, but ‘Helmet’ is just such a special song. Oh no. I'm going to go ‘Rae Street.’ Just.
Quarter Final 4: ‘Roadrunner’ by The Modern Lovers vs ‘Blowin’ in the Wind’ by Bob Dylan
This is hard. I'm going to have to go ‘Blowin’ in the Wind.’
Semi-Final 1: ‘Hold On’ by John Lennon vs ‘Eleanor Rigby’ by The Beatles
So tough. But I have to go ‘Eleanor Rigby.’
Semi Final 2: ‘Rae Street’ by Courtney Barnett vs ‘Blowin’ in the Wind’ by Bob Dylan
We're going to have to go ‘Blowin’ in the Wind,’ aren’t we?
Final: ‘Eleanor Rigby’ by The Beatles vs ‘Blowin’ in the Wind’ by Bob Dylan
This is so tough because it's my life's work to make a song like ‘Blown’ in the Wind.’ But honestly, it’s also my life’s work to make something like ‘Eleanor Rigby,’ so I think ‘Eleanor Rigby.’ That's the one. And you know what? The answer changes all the time, but I would be happy to say that is probably one of my favourite songs of all time. That was great fun.
Moving on from that. What are your ingredients for a song to be considered a future classic?
It's interesting because we're seeing two different worlds of classic emerge. There's classic old school, which is more rock music. But now we’ve got songs that came out eight to ten years ago, like early Tyler, the Creator songs. They're slowly becoming this new wave of classic. But for me, I think the ingredients for a classic are that it needs to appeal to most genres of people, and be guitar-y. I don't mean guitars in classic rock. I just think everyone likes music with guitars in it, whereas there are people who don't like music that have 808s. But the guitar, bass, drums and piano can relate to people of all ages, shapes, sizes, nationalities. The instrumentation of those four instruments is something that everyone can bob their heads to and maybe sing a few words of.
I think the 1975 album they just put out a months ago might be considered classic in the future. Some of those songs could go down the classic route. I think some Steve Lacy songs too. ‘Bad Habit’ will be a classic. Mac DeMarco is another one. All his music will be classic.
Let's talk about ‘Bad Habit’ a bit. It benefited a lot from TikTok streams. What are your thoughts of TikTok in the music industry?
It's tough. I’m actually all for it, to be honest. I like when a song is good enough that it also sounds good sped up, which is crazy to think. It's a bit gimmicky, but so much great music has come from gimmicks.
I do think that some artists are trying to appeal to TikTok and make those hits particularly go big on the platform. But that's nothing new. In the 80s, when MTV came out, there were people trying to crazy videos or songs to fit MTV. The modern format of a single is still based on what the radio would play, even though the radio is just not that important anymore, as we spoke about before. I think whatever is dominating the culture, artists will always try to make things fit. There will be good things, and there will be bad things. The best ones are accidental. I love when TikTok uses Mac DeMarco, when TikTok uses Steve Lacy. That's my opinion of it. I don't think it's bad, but people fall a bit flat when they focus on the gimmicks and not the music.
We've got a playlist of our guest selections, so if you had five songs that you’ve listened to over the last week, or any songs of all time that you could share that would be great.
This is unreal. I love this song called ‘Invisible’ by Alison Moyet. It's not a huge song, but it's one of those ones that you would have heard before. ‘Eleanor Rigby,’ I’ll give again. I’ll give you ‘Panic’ by The Smiths and ‘Tangled up in Blue’ by Bob Dylan. For my last one, I’ll give ‘Ode to Viceroy’ by Mac DeMarco. That's probably my taste in five songs. They're all different, but I love them all for what they are.
Last one for today. Do you have any words of wisdom, people to shout out or anything to promote at the moment?
I don't really have too many words of wisdom as I'm still figuring out the wisdom for myself. I don’t know what works and what doesn’t, but I will say whatever you do, just f*cking stick at it. No matter where results take you. If you believe in something, just keep showing up and keep doing it. Don't ever give it up.
Shoutouts will just be to all my mates. Dyl, with Garden State Journal. He's so amazing. He's so successful. My friend Zakk and his brand Euphoric Craft. It's amazing to see a young person try to figure out sh*t and make it work. Simon, with his brand Milkbar, his authenticity, his vision and his taste. My friend Jackson, please check out his design studio Nyvora. His work ethic is great. For those four mates of mine, please go give them love. If you're going to check me out, check them out. There’s also a lot of local music artists in the scene doing a lot of great things. My friend Hamish and his band called Coy Fox. They're a great band. My mate Dennis, with Franjapan. They're another local Melbourne band. They're a bunch of great, dedicated musicians. My friends Cotch and Dom with their band called Sweet Nothing. I love people who do their own thing, who aren’t in things for the wrong or right reason. They just do things for the love and do it for themselves.
I also wanted to say at the start of this, but I'll say it now. I think it's really important to be taking a journalistic standpoint on these things. The people who write about the artist and write about what's going on are just important as the artists. The music industry wouldn't be what it is without publications like Rolling Stone magazine. I will give any person who wants to talk the time of day, because I think it's important. So, thank you too!
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